JP,
One of the things I love about this game is that luck plays such a small role in it. I think of it like chess with multiple teams. The players with the best plan and the best execution of that plan are the ones that win.

I think the most important feature of TW is it's customization. Limitless games and possibilities. A crafty sysop can make almost any scenario, from 2-3 hour death matches to month long games of cat-and-mouse to year long planet-slug-fests.

What would I like to see in the future?

I'd like to see extern go away. Or have it run hourly in a more limited fashion. So things like getting towed happen after 24 hours in fedspace, or cit upgrades where the clock starts ticking the moment you create them, so you have to wait 24 or 48 hours after making them for them to upgrade. And have those hourly events be configurable by the sysop, so one could play a "classic" game if one desired.

I also think TW needs more built in automation. Many players don't like the direction that scripting has taken TW, and many players can't live without their scripts. I think in a perfect world TW would have it's own internal scripts, macros, or scripting language that were both more easily accessable, and more easily learned than the current scripting languages. But they would have to be something that the sysop had more control over.

I would love to see a scenario where TW had a scripting/macro language built in that had the power of TWX, but where the scripts that were written were shared. So, if I run a photon script, that same script would be available to ALL players in that game. And the Sysop would have the option to approve or disapprove scripts. Or maybe the sysop just bangs a game and says "ok, only these 5 scritps are available."

These internal scripts or macros would be regulated to work slightly FASTER than a human could type, but not the crazy speed that TWX allows. And then I would rate limit the direct user input from their telnet session to maybe a few chars a second (i.e. SLOW). By doing this, the players could still use things like TWX, but if they want speed, then they have to use the shared scripts that run on the server itself. This would provide a more level playing field while still allowing customization. And when running the internal scripts, the user's connection speed is irrelevant, leveling the playing field even further. I'd be sure to make the internal scripts accessable from a simple menu, and allow for a dozen or so customizable macros for each player.

I got more, but this is the direction that I'd like to see TW go. More than anything.

As much as I enjoy scripting, I have to agree with you in regard to scripts. While it takes game knowledge to script, scripting ability (or access to someone else's scripts) should not dictate a player's success in the game. You talk about the speed that TWX allows and you are correct - esp in unlimited move games.

Gridding should be a challenge; however in an unlim, gridding is fairly safe (unless you forget to change a setting or two). If you get hit by a photon, saveme fires automatically and you are on a planet. Now is this scenario dictated by skill, or the level at which the script is written? I guess there is a little bit of skill required to type $ssgrid

Tradewars, in regard to unlim move play, has evolved into ScriptWars. The scripters adapt to changes in the game as they happen; the non-scripter waits for someone to release a script to counter.

So I don't leave out the turn players, the turn game has evolved in a similar fashion but not, in my opinion, to the same extent. How many effective corps in a turn game use a team SDT script of some type? Turn it on and watch tv while keeping an eye on the screen. Blue colonizer - script or macros handle that but the level of scripting/macro writing is not in the same league as the SDT and haggle routines. Density photon - don't think a lot of people are typeing "sd" over and over and waiting a second to see results then sending "cpy1234*q" fast enough to catch someone.

Yes, we still have base invasions to make (except for those that automate that), and maybe ppt at the start of a game (well except for world ppt that is automated), and we get to name or join our corp/set the pw/set ss/turn off animation and head for dock (except my script does that now).

I think Traitor's ideas are a step in the right direction of returning TradeWars to what it should be.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Uh some suggestions:

#1 Keep two versions of the game, one classic and one the new era. That way the classical Tradewars Players can be happy, and the new blood can be happy as well. Then just designate each server as new or classic, and maybe SYSOPS can run both on different ports. EIS could earn more revenue that way by selling two products instead of one.

#2 If there is any internal scripting, make it available as computer upgrades from the stardock. You can access them on your ship computer. World Trade, Explore, Grid, SSM, SDT, Colonize, etc. Just the basic scripts, and allow the script writers to sell their more complex scripts that do combat, use better haggle formulas, etc. That way the players are happy, and the script writers don't lose any of their business. Remember that any script built into the game, cuts into the business of script writers and TW Helper sales.

#3 Make the aliens smarter, too many fig hits can ruin a game. Maybe store the fig hits seperatly from the normal log. Like have a "Show Fig Hits (Y/N)?" prompt or something.

Laff. Old topic.

Gotta be honest.. I'm kindof tired of people blaming scripts for the reason why TW is losing players. Scripts have been around since the 80s, ever since people started playing MUDs. I remember using PPT scripts written for Telemate back in the early 90s. Today all of the other games we hear tossed around still involve scripting. Don't think WoW has macros and responsive scripting? Google proves otherwise.

Competitive games require competitive edges. In TW that means using scripts to speed up response time. I know of no way to prevent someone from sending a macro burst short of adding artifical lag to keystrokes. Do you think adding an artificial lag will somehow "improve" the game (I mean, seriously... make the game better by making it worse?)? If you include certain scripts within game you will need to make them competitive with TWX proxy style scripting and ZOC-style macros, maybe by making them all internal and faster (no move delay would be a nice touch). That still will not stop people from using scripts in situations where they provide an advantage, tho. I'm one of those people that think that being smarter, quicker or having more experience SHOULD give an advantage in order to motivate people into getting smarter, quicker and gaining more experience.

Whether these scripts come from other players or public sites, whether they come from close-knit groups or whether the player writes his own, they aren't going away. The best thing we can do is make sure everyone knows how they work and what they do... so that returning players have a better chance to catch up on a quicker learning curve than is currently allowed.

Unlim play has always been inherently about speed. How fast can you move, how fast can you attack, how fast can you colonize. While a lot of people didn't recognize that, those that did tended to win. Now with so many public scripts out there that advantage is obvious. I think Xide even said something about how the "logic" of unlim play was inherently flawed back in his retirement letter.

TW doesn't have as big of a player base not because of scripting but because there are other options out there. Yes, some of that involves it being text instead of graphics. It also involves the rather limited universe that TW allows, limited aliens, limited interactions, limited situations, limited play compared to the universe that WoW and EVE provide. Naturally in a game where situations fall within a tight scope you will develop a mentality that is resistant to change.

If you want to "evolve" TW I don't think there's an easy answer. I certaintly don't think "scripts" (or macros) are to blame. They're a natural development within the game. I think we need to take a deep look at what TW is and what it's competition is. How can we make the universe larger? How can we network servers and share elements within a developing universe? How can we make the game harder while making it more enjoyable? And yes, how can we implement graphics that will draw in the eyecandy crowd?

You can't drive forward by looking backwards. Trying to "fix" broken things will only result in a patched TW 3.13. It's certaintly not going to give us the next "evolution" of the game. Think bigger.

To be completely honest every time I try and picture a graphical TradeWars game I come up with something that would be a completely different game with the basic game concepts integrated in to the theme. I don’t see it being as fast paced and cutthroat as the current game can be but something slower paced like Eve.

As for scripting I picture something like WoW’s UI where you can write your own mods that interface with the UI proved some customization and atomization as separate plug in type of thing.

I don’t think any graphical TradeWars game would use Telnet as a way of connecting to a game server.

Then again I’m not JP so I have no idea of what his vision of the game would be.

Just my .02 on the subject.

quote:Competitive games require competitive edges. In TW that means using scripts to speed up response time. I know of no way to prevent someone from sending a macro burst short of adding artifical lag to keystrokes. Do you think adding an artificial lag will somehow "improve" the game (I mean, seriously... make the game better by making it worse?)?
Where did I say get rid of macros? Just make them internal. If you want it quick, you use internal scripts or macros. If you are just poking around or whatever, you're not going to be typing at 300wpm anyway.
quote:
If you include certain scripts within game you will need to make them competitive with TWX proxy style scripting and ZOC-style macros, maybe by making them all internal and faster (no move delay would be a nice touch). That still will not stop people from using scripts in situations where they provide an advantage, tho. I'm one of those people that think that being smarter, quicker or having more experience SHOULD give an advantage in order to motivate people into getting smarter, quicker and gaining more experience.
Isn't that what I said?
quote:If you want to "evolve" TW I don't think there's an easy answer. I certaintly don't think "scripts" (or macros) are to blame. They're a natural development within the game.

I'm not blaming scripts. Quite the opposite. I'm advocating making them PART OF THE GAME. But, as always, I want the sysop to have more influence on how they are used on their board. If anything, internal scripts have the potential to be faster than existing scripts, since they would be executed directly from the server, and there would be no waiting for your client to get a message before it responds. Additionally, with internal scripts, you would be more aware of your existing status (figs, turns, etc...) without having to hit / all the time and wait on that. As long as the sysop has control over the speed that they execute at, and maybe the ability to allow/disallow certain scripts OR certain script commands.
quote:
I think we need to take a deep look at what TW is and what it's competition is. How can we make the universe larger? How can we network servers and share elements within a developing universe? How can we make the game harder while making it more enjoyable? And yes, how can we implement graphics that will draw in the eyecandy crowd?
The big problem with scaling up is that there is no entropy...once you have a resource, short of combat, you keep it forever. I think making the universe bigger and connecting systems will only lead to more stalemates, or more games where weeks go by without any player to player contact. If anything we need to concentrate the player pool with fewer servers. With the myriad of possible edits, I don't see how you could tie multiple servers together. I guess they could all agree to run the same edits, but then what's the point? Might as well get everyone to play on the same server.

The current GUI helpers already come pretty close to making TW more graphical. Even elements of my Move Helper script make TW more arcade like. I think the helpers will evolve graphics long before the game actually does.

Speed, yea... A graphical version wouldn't be as fast-paced. But certaintly that seems where people are going.

T,
Sorry, you didn't say you wanted to get rid of macros. But it just sounded as if you were trying to put script control completely into the sysop's hands. While that's not a bad thing, there's no way the sysop can completely restrict what runs on their server in a client-server model.

What you said was that you wanted to level the playing field between scripters and average players. To some extent that would happen, but then you get into a equilibrium issue again where advanced players have scripts that the server doesn't provide. Suddenly you're in the exact same situation as you are now, one side naturally having an advantage. I still see no way to give the sysop control over what runs on a client's machine, nor how in the end would this level any playing field.

Obviously server-level scripts would change the balance of things, and not always for the better. Consider blue twarp colonization being an internal script. If everything ran locally it would be that much more difficult to catch a non-fedsafe blue during the process, giving blues a bigger advantage on some edits. To compensate for this (which you've already said, granted) and allow edit designers to continue having influence, various bits of these would need to be "settings." Sound familiar? It's what's happened during the last several versions of TW... lol. How is that a substantial evolution? SSDD. How does this "return TW to the way it should be?" (which is what, exactly, prome?)

As for the bigger universe... we're still not thinking big enough. More on the "driving by looking backwards" thing. You don't have stalemates on today's best multi-user games because the universe grows faster than the players. In a flat text environment with an alien race or 2 and afew players here and there... there's no need to have more than 1 server. But if you had a 10 quadrillion sector universe with hundreds of thousands of NPC aliens with different agendas and missions... you couldn't do that on a single server. Imagine running into an alien with their own small stardock that needs a particular item found only on a planet under control of another hostile alien race. Enter your sub-mission, reward... some cool alien ship. Your CEO might send you off on that job, might not. Who knows.

Yes, that would be a very different game than today's TW, but it would be a fun game and a BIG step forward. Isn't something one lone developer can do on their own, that's for sure. I don't know what JP's plans for the game are. Some limited info available recently, but well... who knows. All I know is that on the current curve... as time approaches infinity, the player base approaches 0. And I don't see small steps fixing that.

Singularity - what I mean by "the way it should be" is not my computer/script/connection vs another computer/script/connection and that is what a lot of unlims have turned into. The speed at which the scripts work cannot be matched by a person. He/she who has the best scripts (based on equal game knowledge) will win - does that make that person the better player, or just the owner of better written scripts?

The unlim move game seems to have evolved into run script 1, run script 2, kill competition.

I enjoy writing scripts and use them, but I think there is a downside also in automating everything. We are basically in an arms race when it comes to scripts and from what I can tell scripts have advanced a lot over the last couple of years.

Back on the topic of evolving the game, I think Orion has hit on part of it. A text based version will be around for a while and due to the need for "eye candy" by many of today's players some type of graphical version will have to emerge. If I remember correctly, someone posted about a graphical rewrite a year or so ago, but was told that they had infringed on the Tradewars copyright.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

Ok, accepted. But as there's no way to eliminate scripts without crippling other legitimate applications, how would you fix that?

I think Xide summed it on pretty well w/ his opinion on unlims. Either play limited turn games or learn how to script. Doesn't the assumption of equal game knowledge also provide another out for this? If you want to compensate for a scripting advantage then learn the game better? Personally I don't think you can create or even operate "better written scripts" without atleast a satisfactory understanding of the game. Which means people with a better understanding can probably undermine your script and take over.

A while ago someone made a funny... that people go thru phases w/ scripts. Something like 1, Gotta get scripts. 2. I'm l33t cuz I got new scripts. 3. These dang scripts run the game, they're ruining everything. 4. Well it takes a good player to run good scripts, so maybe they're not so bad. Loop back to #2.

But anyway. How the game will probably evolve versus how we'd like it to evolve is a critical discussion. Right now it's evolving down the drain, hard to even get a single draft game together without running into player shortages.

lol, have to agree with you on #2 of the phases. I met a player not too long ago in that phase and he had a "killer" script and thought he was a Tradewars god. Well, he was a pod driving god anyway....

I'm not sure if there is any way to eliminate scripting to be honest. A possibly bad analogy is system admins vs hackers - seems like someone always finds a way around the defenses and I think the same thing would happen regarding eliminating scripting. Random message strings might be one method, but we would still find something consistent to key off of for our triggers (or just add additional triggers). Given time, scripters will find a way to adapt.

Like I stated earlier, I enjoy scripting - probably even more than the game itself.

               / Promethius / Enigma / Wolfen /

"A man who has no skills can be taught, a man who has no honor has nothing."

I can't take credit for the game being the way it is now. But I can take some credit for ramming that style down everyone's throat. I've done as much as anyone to "ruin" the game. heh. And to be honest, I probably wouldn't play on a board where the sysop was too heavy handed in restricting scripts. I love scripts. I love macros. I love the edge that my scripts give me. It took a while for me to get there tho. Anyone that knows me knows that.

I also know that TW somehow needs to do something to appeal to a wider audience. The #1 complaint I hear about modern TW from both returning players and new players is that the pace of the game is too fast.* It's nearly impossible to learn how to play when your competition is running circles around you and putting you in a pod every time you step out of Fed. Scripts are but a symptom of the problems. I think there are several real problems. One problem is that with so many choices out there, why invest the time needed in this game when there are so many others that have easier learning curves? It can take months or years to get really good at TW. It also takes a while to figure out what tools you need to play.

What if the tools came with the game? I don't know if it would help, but I don't see how it can hurt. All I want is the sysop to have the flexibility to host whatever style of game appeals to them. The more flexibility, the broader the appeal.

Another problem is documentation. The internal documentation is horribly out of date. All it teaches you how to do now is how to die Die DIE. The very first thing the documentation should say now is:
quote:
If you are a new player, welcome! Go visit the following sites before you start playing:
(insert your favorite TW sites here [:D])

If you are a returning player, this ain't your grandma's TW anymore! Helpers and scripts are the rule now. The game is much, much faster paced. It's still quite playable, but you have to be prepared to accept the fact that lots and lots of things are now automated. You can still play by hand, but you won't be competitive on most boards. If you are still interested, then go to the above sites and prepare to be re-educated.

And regardless if you are new or returning, stay the heck out of unlimited turn games till you get a feel for how modern TW is played.

That would be a nice start. It wouldn't hurt for all the sysops to put something like that on their intro screens too. At least then the newbies would be forewarned and have an idea what they are getting themselves into before they got to the whining and crying stage.

* And I do get complaints. One of the perks of running http://www.tw-cabal.com is I get hate mail from every sap that can't figure out how to play, and somehow I'm to blame. Heh. You guys pod them. They cry. You tell them to go to my site. They read it. They come back and get podded again. They send me hate mail and go back to playing WoW or whatever. Go figure. And OMG, if I happen to roll over some newbit...sheesh, it's like I shot their dog.

Sorry Traitor I'll stop sending you all that hate mail I thought it was keeping you amused but in my defense everyone keeps telling me that you did it shoot my dog.

Sounds like what players need is a scripting guide to the game then. Explaining contemporary scripts and game play concepts.

i would like to see all twars players play WoW.
end discussion.

I don't know you. Hehe.