Since Deuce has teased you about a *nix version of TW, I thought I'd go ahead and provide some of my thoughts about this new version of Trade Wars. Keep in mind that nothing is set in stone, and development is just beginning. I continue to be committed to Trade Wars, and at this time I believe this is the best course for future development, but things can change. Just keep that in mind

Ok, some of you might have heard about the design goals I have for TWv4. I've been kicking around these designs for several years as a way to overcome some of the more serious gameplay issues in classic TW. These goals include things like replacing nightly extern with 24/7 maintenance processing (realtime FedSpace patrols, that sort of thing), changes to the combat system to limit automated attacks, changes to the turn system to decrease the required number of hours per week to be competitive, the addition of a number of end-game conditions (King of the Hill, Capture the Flag, etc), and others. Other design goals I have in mind are integration with an official, optional GUI client, support for 3rd party helper plug-ins for this client, and a more powerful open-architecture for Gold features.

Along with these goals, another goal of mine has been to release Trade Wars for Linux. I had originally hoped to port TWGS to Linux with Kylix, but was disappointed by the portability of legacy Delphi applications. The amount of effort needed for the Kylix port would be significantly less than a rewrite (which any port to another language would require), but the result would be yet another stage in the life of what I refer to as the Frankencode that is TWv3. The last DOS version of TWv3 had legacy support of DOS 5 and Desqview, and TWv3 for TWGS was built on top of that. The world is a very different place today than it was when TW was originally written, and it suffers from kluge on top of kluge. Back in 1998 when I wrote the multiplayer code for TWv2, released as TWv3, I should have started from scratch. Hindsight is 20/20. The amount of effort I've put into fixing the problems it created more than surpass the amount of effort it would have taken to do the rewrite in '98. So my goal has shifted to a rewrite, and I have decided that support for Linux should wait for that rewrite. The problem has been that I have not had the time needed to undertake the rewrite.

And the final goal is to create an architectural foundation on which future, more modern versions of the game can be written. The next iteration of the game will not be significantly different from the current version. Changes will be limited to those necessary to fix the gameplay issues that have been identified over the years. But the architecture of the new version will support changes that will bring the game into the new millennium. Once the new version is released, I would like to move in an entirely new direction, creating a version of TW that I can truly call my own. As a born-again indie game developer, I see a great deal of potential in Trade Wars down the road, and I'm anxious to get the evolution rolling again.

So here is how the plan has evolved. While I continue to support TWGS/TWv3, releasing new revisions as needed, Deuce will be working on the cross-platform foundational architecture for the new version. This architecture will be a general game system with capabilities well beyond the needs of TW. Once that system is complete, Deuce and I will proceed to port the high-level game code of the final version of TWv2, the version which I used when creating TWv3, to the new system. Rather than integrate the system calls into the existing code, as I did with TWv3, we will be rewriting each section of code. TWv3 suffered from logic issues related to multiplayer game access. While the underlying engine supported multiplayer gameplay, the game logic did not, and in many cases bugs and cheats have resulted. The new version will be truly multiplayer in gameplay logic. This of course will mean that changes will be made, and while TWv3 was output-compatible with TWv2 (not breaking helpers and scripts), the new TW will NOT be output-compatible. The gameplay will be very similar to classic TW, but it will be a new game. This is necessary. And along with these changes will be a short list of the changes I've proposed for TWv4. The primary goal is to release a game that is clearly identifiable as Trade Wars, but it will not be the same as TWv2 or TWv3.

We will rely on the interaction of players and gameops to help us keep the spirit of TW in this new version as these changes are made.

As for what this will mean to registered gameops, my goal is to continue to honor the promise made originally by Martech, that a Trade Wars registration is for life. This includes TWGS. I can't guarantee that this will be true for all future games released under the Trade Wars name, but for the next version of Trade Wars 2002, that is my goal.

TWGS will continue to run TWv3 alongside the new version of the game. So if you continue to run a Windows version of TWGS, you'll have the option of running either or both flavors. Keep in mind that the new version will be much kinder in terms of resource usage, though, since all active games will run under a single process as opposed to the one-game-per-process approached used with TWv3. If you decide to run the *nix version, you will not be able to run TWv3. Only the new version will be supported in TWGS for *nix.

Oh, and that brings me to the question of future development for TWGS. One of the main goals I have in mind for TWGS is the creation of a non-GUI core. It will include a remote, text-based administration feature, as well as a command-line interface. This will be more compatible with *nix platforms, and will allow gameops to better administer their games remotely on *nix or Windows systems. The GUI will become a client to the TWGS core, and it can be run from the same or a different machine. For now, only a Windows-based GUI is planned, based on the current GUI. A Linux GUI would be the next logical addition, using Kylix to port the existing GUI. Details on the interface between a client and the TWGS core will (most likely) be made available so that others may implement clients on their systems of choice.

Well, that's it for now. As I said, my priority right now is work on TWv3, and I've posted another message here requesting feedback on where to go for the next revision. I also want to get a bare-bones version of JumpGate functional. That feature is LONG overdue.

Let me know what you think.

I think something to consider is should this new version keep telnet? Telnet is much more archaic than the TW code and it wasn't even intended to be a widely used protocol. If you're planning on redoing TW from the group up, this would be a perfect time to switch to something that gives a little more power.

Obviously the old v3 will still need to use Telnet, but a problem brought up by switching is that you now need to use either a helper or the new GUI to play. I don't think this is a problem since practically all helpers out there provide people with a free version. (minus some features) By getting rid of telnet, we can automatically cut down on bandwidth since we are no longer limited to sending information only though text. Plus you can optionally add some techniques like [url="http://wwwasdoc.web.cern.ch/wwwasdoc/hepdb_html3/node12.html"]Bit Packing[/url] to cut down on bandwidth even more. It will be more work, but I think it would be worth it.

Oh and since you're a born again indie developer JP, with some luck I'll be gunning for a spot in the student section of the Independent Games Festival.

Darn, I should have just put this on my webpage.

It sounds good, a Java version of the GUI should be made for platforms that cannot run the Windows or *nix code. I can't wait to drag and drop fighters on other ships to see what happens.

One thing to consider is a web interface to play the game via a browser. Use a CGI script for a web server to run to interface with the new TW. This could be good for those who cannot Telnet, and cannot use the GUI for some reason.

Will this compile on PPC machines (AKA OSX macs)?

quote:Originally posted by Mana Knight

I think something to consider is should this new version keep telnet? Telnet is much more archaic than the TW code and it wasn't even intended to be a widely used protocol. If you're planning on redoing TW from the group up, this would be a perfect time to switch to something that gives a little more power.


I'm with you here. I'd like to see 'pluggable' interface support so that whether it connects via telnet, web, proprietary client, etc. It can be supported. The web interface has been mentioned time after time over the years but I have a hard time seeing it being a viable option unless you build a web-based client (like NETLOD uses) of some kind. A web browser, no matter how speedy a renderer it is, is not exactly an ideal medium for a real-time combat game. You could easily be killed before the screen paints that your opponent is near for example.

Hey Orion if your looking for Java check out J-twat as a helper, it also has a web based version for those who want to play from a browser. Set it up on your web site and the players can use it to play the game from the web site.

Thanks I already tried it. Some nitpicks I have with it is that it has a short scrollback and some of the scripts are buggy. Well the port buydown won't even let you buy from a port in a different sector, for example. Plus I get lockups in some of the scripts and network disconnects. I just tried it out on Alien Base and got stranded while pair porting at the paired ports. Good thing nobody else was playing or they might have podded me. But I'll give it a try again.

Well I never said it was perfect but it does serve a purpose from time to time. And it does have a web interface to play directly from the net.

I would prefer to keep away from the GUI foormat. The text based telnet is fine in my book. Gone are the days of 1200 baud modems. We can take a slight hit to bandwidth.
There are GUI clients out there that will make the game nice and easy. I prefer to play it without such "comforts". I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who would agree with me.

Making a GUI based Tradewars would make it harder to write scripts for it. You'd have to make your own version of the Client and update it when the Server updates or else it may break.

Tradewars: The New Era tried a GUI Client, but failed at it. Well it wasn't 100% GUI but it had GUI elements to it like menus.

Just one comment that I haven't noticed anyone bring up yet regarding a *nix version of TW2002.. You say Linux over and over. I'm confused. Does this mean it will be Linux only, or will it be a truely portable system? I'd hate to have to install Linux on a box just to use this when I have perfectly adequate FreeBSD boxes able to do it already.

We say Linux ove rand over again because it is popular. The development seems to be for a *nix version which can run on almost any Unix system.

I'm assuming that only the binary will be released, and not the source code. So they would have to compile it on as many *nix systems as they could. After all, you don't want someone taking the source code and making a dirivative of TWGS based on the source code and not paying for it.

I am sure that many would want to see an Open Sourced version of Tradewars for *nix, but I don't think that is going to happen any time soon.

John,

First of all, welcome back. I'm glad to see around again. Second, from what you have outlined hear, and in the other threads. It all sound very good. With one exception, the Alien AI. I totally agree with you about not releasing it for v3. Although, you and Martech did promise to have it released in v3 GOLD. That was one of 2 main reasons why bought the Gold registration code way back when. So, unless you decide to have something similar, in regards to aliens, in v4. I will have to do without.

quote:Originally posted by John Pritchett (EIS)
As for what this will mean to registered gameops, my goal is to continue to honor the promise made originally by Martech, that a Trade Wars registration is for life. This includes TWGS. I can't guarantee that this will be true for all future games released under the Trade Wars name, but for the next version of Trade Wars 2002, that is my goal.


The way I see this John. Is if you truelly create the next version as a game of your very own design, thus making it your own. And the game Trade Wars only in spirit. Then you should be able to charge a new registration for it. Yet still allow revisions, major and/or minor, to be free for life. And that should keep you within the spirit of your promise to Gary.

As for the registration for TWGS. That should really be up to you. As that is your own creation, not Martech's.

I personally have paid out $110. For what I beleave to be 5 versions of Trade Wars 2002. Although the last three can be termed as the same version. I have had v1.xx, v2.xx v3.xx, v3.xx GOLD, TWGS/TWv3. And if you were to charge for a new registration, for v4. Then I would also buy that one as well. And I think a alot of the really old time sysops/players (like those that played, or operated, one of the first original door versions: The Mad Hatter, Gypsie, myself, etc.) would feel the same.


When you do start releasing the next version for BETA. Why don't you also setup a bug reporting/tracking system. This would help your out alot with tracking bugs. It would also give the sysops/players a way to report bugs to you. Yet lets the sysops/players know if the bug(s) they plan on reporting, has already be reported. Plus it would give your internal BETA Testing Team. The information they would need to reproduce any the potential bugs.

Also, it would not hurt to have the new version. Do create a dump file when a major error occurs. This would help to track down bugs that seem to system specific.

Welcome back!

I personally believe the game should continue to have a telnet interface. Requiring a proprietary interface, or even using a JAVA interface, means more coding, and therefore more maintenance. I, being a bit of a purist, prefer the KISS method to coding. The fewer things to maintain, the better. Having maintained a 10+ year old application in the past, I know how desperately a project can, from time to time, need a re-write.

Being a TW veteran from way back... starting with TW1000 somewhere in the mid to late 90s... I'd like to see a complete re-write. A logical outline of the gameplay done first, then fill in the code to make it happen. There have been, in the past, bugs which were interesting, to say the least. The planet-cloning bug was, by far, the most interesting. Additionally, a complete re-write (following the KISS method) would allow for a more portable platform. Imagine TW2002 running on just about anything, cross-compiled with ease.

I don't think charging a premium for a new v4 as an "upgrade" fee would be unacceptable to users if the product has the same or better quality with the ability to be cross-platform. I think most users would understand that the coding time involved needs a bit of compensation. I'd be willing to upgrade my license (currently I'm TWGS Gold) is order to run on *nix.

Finally, I'd like to offer my services. I've worked a good deal in C, and while a bit rusty from the lack of a worthwhile project, I'd love to help in any way I can. Even if it's just beta-testing the software from a programmers point of view. This is definately a worthwhile project, and something that is likely overdue. I'm not looking for financial compensation, and would think that a good, dedicated group of volenteers could accomplish the goal of creating a new code-base.

Quick outline for my 2 cents:

1. JP, its F-ing GREAT to see you're around again...I, along with many people, were getting worried.
2. Can we keep a telnet login but have a GUI at the same time?
3. As far as registration, I'm glad to see you want to honor the lifetime agreement, but I agree with "The Wabbit". If its your own creation, I have no problem paying for a new game. If others don't feel the same, then I wouldn't care to "donate" to your company via PayPal or something like that as a means to compensate you for your time. Let's face it, without you, TW would be a distant memory.

4. Thats all. lol...seriously though, welcome back.