quote:Mundane tasks are one thing but using ZTM (Zero turn mapping) throws the game into an imbalance when it is specifically to avoid having to come into the nasties areas, trade, etc. storing all information on all 20k sectors without visiting them or evens scanning them all in the first day. Using the ship that is provided, to visit 20k sectors, that would require 60k to 80k of turns. This particular script is made to specifically defeat the game turns, combat, pitfalls, other players, etc..

I don't want to start a war here, nor do I want to get anyone upset over this. The way I understand ZTM is that is basically maps the universe by calculating the paths from every sector to every other sector. (There are refinements here to make it faster, but basically, that's what it is) Using the CIM to do this makes it faster since there are no ANSI codes displayed using the CIM, just raw text. However, if the CIM did not exist, I'll bet I could still map out the entire universe, without moving. It's simple enough. Type your destination sector at the command prompt and it tells you how to get there. Just cancel the autopilot every time.

If I'm understanding the logic behind this, I'll take a guess that the CIM was introduced to reduce the players time online. Less displayed on the screen, less prompts, and faster output. It's not a cheat, nor is it a bad thing. The only way to stop this is to remove autopilot from the game and I'm not so sure that would be such a good thing!

Anyways, that's my $0.02. Obviously, on your TWGS, you can set whatever rules you want. But, of course, unless you're willing to sit there and spy on every node, I doubt there's much you can do to prevent it.

Oh, and if I'm wrong about anything above, please correct me!

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~~ XenoPhage ~~
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I agree, its not cheating if someone not using scripts can also do this. The scripts just make it go A LOT faster...that is not a bad thing at all.

quote: The ones that depend on those scripts alone only get a better start until they are caught and told not to use them. The Better players will, sooner or later, surpass them.

Theses days, if someone is not using a script, you will fall behind in the begining, but the players skills, not scripts will show a clear winner everytime...so I agree with Dhunt on that one.

Have a Nice day!


*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

Well, I do have to state a comment here.

I use scripts for basic trading, and planet stocking - I have also written scripts to add in information to my current displays (I won't go into TOO much detail here.

However, in all the games I've seen lately, especially the unlimited turn games, the gameops are acting like Santa Claus. "Give the players unlimited turns, and no movement delay, and ships that can hold 500k fighters." And then they wonder why the game has to be reset in 6-8 days.

I personally played in one of these games and made over 15 MILLION credits in under an hour. I went from last place on the list to 4th, (out of 25 or so players) and had my commish and the biggest "ship" (See: Death Star) in the game in that hour. The next hour was spent getting 5 level 3 citadel planets with about 10k colos each. I quit playing pretty much after that - For those of us with skills in the game, this offered very little challenge nor did it create much desire to play.

-Stryker
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

Unlimited turn games are different...I am a mediocre player, and in an Unlimited turn game I was first place for over a month on a list of 25 or so players. Some of the other players were MUCH better than me, but in an unlimited turn game, I was the winner...why?? Time is the answer...I was a loser for a month and played TW for approx 6-10 hours a day!! In these games, it is all about who is most dedicated, I just set up my helper to do some ppt and went out for a smoke, then set it to another pair, and went to eat...Like this I was able to make craploads of $$ with minimal worry because it was unlimited turns and I was playing the most.
BUT...turn games sre different(as I am now discovering). In turn games you must decide on your daily tasks in list of importance, and the one who gets that down right(helper or not) will be the victor!
l8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

quote:
Well, I do have to state a comment here.

I use scripts for basic trading, and planet stocking - I have also written scripts to add in information to my current displays (I won't go into TOO much detail here.

However, in all the games I've seen lately, especially the unlimited turn games, the gameops are acting like Santa Claus. "Give the players unlimited turns, and no movement delay, and ships that can hold 500k fighters." And then they wonder why the game has to be reset in 6-8 days.

I personally played in one of these games and made over 15 MILLION credits in under an hour. I went from last place on the list to 4th, (out of 25 or so players) and had my commish and the biggest "ship" (See: Death Star) in the game in that hour. The next hour was spent getting 5 level 3 citadel planets with about 10k colos each. I quit playing pretty much after that - For those of us with skills in the game, this offered very little challenge nor did it create much desire to play.

-Stryker
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."


I just viewed a player that specifically requested a game like the one you were in. Not a prob. The other 5 are not going to be like that. But for the Super Scripters, let one be available.

Problem with it, no one but him plays it. The meanest game is quite busy and has limits. This one doesn't. In one day, the lone player raised over 35k of fighters, an Imperial Cruiser fully equipped and just took Ferengal. Oh did I mention the Millions of credits he has? Since this game is aproved for this type of play, it's no problem but it astounds me why anyone would even bother playing this way. He's not playing, hes scripting while watching TV or something else.

Instead of actually bringing a game like this online, maybe I should just have all potential players send me their scripting. The one with the best scripting will be declared the winner. Saves on electricity on both ends and doesn't require any effort in modding the game. Meanwhile, the rest of us will actually play the games in the other areas.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

LOL...i guess some just like to have that sense like they're winning without actually doing anything


*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

When I first started playing just about 1 year ago now, I didn't know helpers existed. I found a game on THorny's BBS. I remember spending hours typing in 1 enter enter enter like 20 times land take...go home drop cols and so on (yeah i didnt know about the express warp either), I musta got like 200k colos like this in the very first game....one day I come in and find it all gone. Fellas name was Maverick...what a dick. Then I discovered the existance of twgs, first place i find...Alienbase...so I start playing there, its an high turn of course cause i am sure as hell not ready for low turns. Build up a nice base...bigger than the other. One day BAM ol Hollywood cleans my clock. But i didn't give up this time i went and built 3 more bases in that same game. In the process i learned about the notepad/macro method and began using it...I thought i was a badass then. But it didn't last and he got me again of course and i let it go that time. Whats my point? I have none accept that nowadays I surely appreciate the use of a good helper. Hey..if that ptorp script will keep jerkys outa my base then im gonna use it. If I can't go out and cash a little without getting pdroped then guess what im gonna use that ppt/ssm script. Its impossible to survive without them.

I am not a very offensive player...at least..not while your online. =) And I do NOT agree that the 24hr use of pdrop and warpin ptorp blah blah yakkity smakkity crap is ruining the game....I wont mention any names but i know at least one corp who has at least one person running a pdrop script running at all times in any game they play. Its rediculous and its unfair to those who don't have the scripting writing knowhow cause people are stingy.

umm...thats all for now later

Stop saying don't quote me because noone quotes you. You probly haven't said a thing worth saying! - KMFDM, Dogma

Edited by - phx on February 24 2002 12:35:03 AM

quote:
I am not a very offensive player...at least..not while your online. =) And I do NOT agree that the 24hr use of pdrop and warpin ptorp blah blah yakkity smakkity crap is ruining the game....I wont mention any names but i know at least one corp who has at least one person running a pdrop script running at all times in any game they play. Its rediculous and its unfair to those who don't have the scripting writing knowhow cause people are stingy.


Rather contridictory statement but I know what you mean. Discussing these types of things in here does have an affect in the future releases. Case in Point, look for CIM and ZDM to meet thier demise in the future. There is only one person that makes the decisions in the development of TW2002 and that is JP. JP has already written to me that those two will be plugged in either then next TW3 bug release or will be eliminated in version 4. IMO opinion those two scripts are the absolute most disruptive in the game. There may be others but mostly, they take the info from those two to be used. Without being able to go outside the game parameters, the limited games are playable regardless if you script or not.

I have noted that the ones that script mostly end up making enough mistakes that they get in trouble later on when the scripts become less important as long as they stay within the limits of the games. The scripting helps you get a big start but later on, everything averages out. Like one person said, you only have X number of turns or X number of minutes and it's a balancing act using Scripting. He was totally correct. For those of us that don't use scripting, it's still a balancing act. I am not much slower than a scripter since I type faster than the interface can handle anyway. Always 2 or 3 keystrokes ahead of the game. The Veteran Gamers are all this way. Especially those with 20 years experience tw1 and 2.

Scripters using script for the mundane tasks are probably better off than not. Let's face it, it's boring to move 25k of anything anywhere. I don't condemn that type of scripting, I just don't use it. That means I can change my tactics faster and that gives the advantage lost back to me.

The point here is to write JP with your info and remember, he is the one with total control over the program itself. The others that appear to be are only in somewhat control in here.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

Hmm... it would better if he made an option to control the on or off states of CIM... I personally enjoy the fact I can look up ports that I have visited and so forth, and also see what sectors I have been to lead to which others. I don't particularly like ZTM myself, because you are right, it takes an element of exploration out of the game... but I think ship's computers should still be able to show you the sectors you have been to and so forth in a dump format.

-Stryker
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."

ZTM doesn't explore the universe for u...it only tells u what it looks like! Do u think the first astronaughts(sp?) decided one day "oh...lets go to the moon and we'll figure out how to get there on the way!!" no...there was years of astronomical research b4 they went anywhere. ZTM is the equivalent of knowing the general outline of where u will be living. Do you decide to drive to Florida from Canada by just going south untill u hit an ocean....NO, u buy a bloody MAP. Thats what ZTM does. It doesn't tell u what is in the sector....so its not cheating!
thats it for now!
l8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

quote:
ZTM doesn't explore the universe for u...it only tells u what it looks like! Do u think the first astronaughts(sp?) decided one day "oh...lets go to the moon and we'll figure out how to get there on the way!!" no...there was years of astronomical research b4 they went anywhere. ZTM is the equivalent of knowing the general outline of where u will be living. Do you decide to drive to Florida from Canada by just going south untill u hit an ocean....NO, u buy a bloody MAP. Thats what ZTM does. It doesn't tell u what is in the sector....so its not cheating!
thats it for now!
l8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!


Space is vast. If you going to buy a map, you won't find a 7-11 on every street corner. Probes were made to do it for you and that costs time and money. In order to get that money, you had to trade. Meanwhile, you have the game and player nasties to contend with. That is the intent and ZTM defeats that purpose completely.

Not to worry, on one game I beat that. The Borg actually think it is players. The Borg invaded and took Ferrengal. It suprised me and I did the original setup. It's driving the players nuts. This type of NGC renders most scripting pretty worthless except for the more mudane tasks. So you have a map. So you know what the ports once were reading at one time. The Real Estate changes hands everytime you move. Careful, when you are out raiding and your resources are low on your planet, the Borg or the Klingons may attack with having a summer house in mind.

Just saw that today. The Borg have been quietly building and are just now reaching where the players can find them. Success in that game will be superior play. But ZTM and CIM are still out.





Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote:
Hmm... it would better if he made an option to control the on or off states of CIM... I personally enjoy the fact I can look up ports that I have visited and so forth, and also see what sectors I have been to lead to which others. I don't particularly like ZTM myself, because you are right, it takes an element of exploration out of the game... but I think ship's computers should still be able to show you the sectors you have been to and so forth in a dump format.

-Stryker
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines."


Sounds like a good suggestion. You may wish to write JP in a personal Email and let him know. I would like to see it also. If you have been there or probed there, you should be able to use your onboard computer to read it. The problem I can see here is the degree of computing involved in the game. It may be prohibitive when actually doing it.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

I see your point dhunt, but I must repeat that once u finish a ZTM, you cannot just call up a sector and it shows u exactly whats in it. To me, thats what probing and exploring is for! Another thing I forgot to mention, it takes up to 12 hours to do a ZTM on a 20k sector universe!! In that time you could trade, buy yourself a holoscanner and explore the entire universe. If u look at it that way, ZTM is a choice u take...U can take the time to get a really good idea of what the universe looks like, or u can go and explore it all. Personally, I like ZTM because I like to know what im getting into b4 I start actually playing instead of just jumping blindly into it. I really dont think ZTM gives a player THAT much of an edge, unless of course u count the fact that it shows u all the possible bases of your nme's. In that case, yes it does give an advantage. But the last game I played in, the sysop filled the universe with tons of 1 ways...this does a pretty good job at confusing your ZTM.
l8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!

quote:
I see your point dhunt, but I must repeat that once u finish a ZTM, you cannot just call up a sector and it shows u exactly whats in it. To me, thats what probing and exploring is for! Another thing I forgot to mention, it takes up to 12 hours to do a ZTM on a 20k sector universe!! In that time you could trade, buy yourself a holoscanner and explore the entire universe. If u look at it that way, ZTM is a choice u take...U can take the time to get a really good idea of what the universe looks like, or u can go and explore it all. Personally, I like ZTM because I like to know what im getting into b4 I start actually playing instead of just jumping blindly into it. I really dont think ZTM gives a player THAT much of an edge, unless of course u count the fact that it shows u all the possible bases of your nme's. In that case, yes it does give an advantage. But the last game I played in, the sysop filled the universe with tons of 1 ways...this does a pretty good job at confusing your ZTM.
l8ter

*Proud Member of the Alliance*

Live Long And Prosper!


After a bit, it doesn't. The problem is, it makes for an extremely short game. Like one Sysop stated, reseting a game every 6 days is rediculous and hardly worth the time of the Sysop. We work very hard on your systems and have only X amount of time in a given day to do this.

Yes, we do find ways of defeating the more agressive scripters. The real game isn't between players. It's between the Super Scripters and the Sysops. You win for a bit but in the end, the Sysop always wins. We have to or the game disappears forever as many others have in the past.

We hear you superscipters the most. We do listen. But we also hear a faint voice in the background that disagrees with you. While your voices are the loudest, there are many more quietly whispering in the background. Being loud doesn't make you right, just LOUD.

I don't wish to see all scripting defeated and it probably won't ever be. Cut and paste into a script area of a telnet client has been used since Procomm was introduced about 20 years ago and it didn't disrupt the game. Stripping the colonists from Sector 1 is boring at best. Stripping a couple of ports isn't much better. But, beyond that, it gets rediculous. Expecially when one of the team members is online with his scripting running protecting the planet. The team member may be out to dinner or sleeping but his scripting is still there. By rotating Team Members, We, the Sysops, are too stupid to catch on. This is why some games have time limits on them. You come up with it and we counter it. It's a game I don't wish to play but have to since you wish to. We, the Sysops, play for only awhile before we toss you out on your kiester. A good Sysop tells the players then tosses the ones that go outside it. But, you are cunning. So we set the game up to prevent you from gaining that much of an advantage. Over 35k of fighters, the top ship and already having defeated Ferrengal in only one day of playing isn't a game. It's a turkey shoot. If you like this game, please go somewhere else.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

Oh, btw, I looked at your info.

Im 19, in the Canadian Military

Good for you and salute.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.