I'd like to ask the sysops and gameops who participate in this forum whether they have found it useful, and in what ways. The forum has been up and running for three months now and I'd like some feedback as to whether it is providing any service that the other forums on the EIS web site do not.

Also, I've got about a half-dozen TW projects on my plate right now, and I've fallen even further behind after being gone for two weeks. I guess this part of the question is: As EIS' Product Support contact, is there anything that you can think of that I am not currently doing that I should be, or that I could do better at?

Feedback is important to me, as I want to help JP keep EIS rolling smoothly both on the development side as well as for the customers that are using TW/TWGS software.

Any and all compliments, criticisms, concerns and suggestions are welcome.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

When this forum was started I had hoped part of its purpose would be to keep sysops aware of game ruining bugs so we could devise ways to police our games. No bugs were ever disclosed here, indeed, in the beta forum most real bugs are kept secret as well, so just like the old days, only a select few know which bugs exist, the support people which is good, and the people that discovered them, and whoever they chose to tell, which is bad. As things are, I don't get any use out of this forum, and I haven't seen anything from EIS suggesting any direction in bug reporting. I suppose EIS doesn't trust it paying customers with bugs that are yet to be fixed. I am not sure what that says, heh. There you go though you asked.

Col Sanders


"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith

I'm never usually negative, and thus I am never helpful when asked questions like these. But I'll try anyways. I personally thought the same as the Col. I expected more info on bugs and possible problems in the game. However, I enjoyed the posts from the sysops, especially since I knew that they were sysops and not just players posting their own opinions. Being able to converse with other sysops about various topics was nice...but I would have enjoyed it even more if we could see more info on fixing problems on our servers or learning about bugs that we might have never known.

Wog's Server
[url]tw.computerwave.com[/url]
Enjoy the Star Trek aliens...before they enjoy you.

quote:
When this forum was started I had hoped part of its purpose would be to keep sysops aware of game ruining bugs so we could devise ways to police our games. No bugs were ever disclosed here, indeed, in the beta forum most real bugs are kept secret as well, so just like the old days, only a select few know which bugs exist, the support people which is good, and the people that discovered them, and whoever they chose to tell, which is bad. As things are, I don't get any use out of this forum, and I haven't seen anything from EIS suggesting any direction in bug reporting. I suppose EIS doesn't trust it paying customers with bugs that are yet to be fixed. I am not sure what that says, heh. There you go though you asked.


What is the difference between one player discovering a bug and telling a couple people and EIS divulging bug reports to sysops? Bugs either need to be kept in confidence or they need to be made publicly available to everyone. Any time bugs are made available to a small group of people there is room for exploitation.

As for catching bug users by divulging specific bugs, that is somewhat of a moot point in my opinion. Obviously if you see an unedited Class L hit Level 6 in just a couple days you can bet that they used a bug. If you have a 700 turn game and by day two someone has a couple billion credits and a couple million fighters it is probably a safe bet to assume the person or team is exploiting a bug.

As for the Beta Team, it is pretty much a dead topic. It has been inactive, and honestly I see no need for it to exist. A majority of the bug reports go to John directly... aside from a handful of players very few people are willing to post bugs even in a semi-private forum such as the Beta Forum.

If you look at other games, beta teams typically come to an end following a public release of the game. EIS' Beta Team was formed following the release of the game. I've been involved in the pre-release Betas of Stars! (finished), Stars! SuperNova Genesis (presently ongoing) as well as a third game that failed to find a publisher. In all cases, most Beta testing was done prior to a public release, avoiding the entire problem of having a private group of players/sysops privy to information that the general public was not. However, even following public releases of Stars! in particular, all bug reports were censored. Following release, even the Beta members were not privvy to the finding of other members. Only the Beta Lead and the Production Manager had access to bug reports. The only time any bugs were ever made public to anyone was only when it was a matter of security problems in the client packages.

This is how a Beta system should work and how bug reports with games should be handled, in my opinion. If it were up to me I would scrap the Beta Team and Forum and rely solely on direct bug reports from players. It seems to me this would solve a couple different ongoing issues. It could easily be replaced by a post only forum, as the Beta Team for Stars! had. Bugs could be submitted for review by anyone, not just the Beta members, but no browsing or viewing was permitted by any other people.

Anyways, there's my opinion.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

Well I entirely disagree with the way you think bug reports ought to work. What you describe is essentially security by obscurity which has helped make Miscrosoft a laughingstock in security circles. It was also the same method used by HVS. Eleq did a huge service to the game when he publicly posted all known bugs. Frankly, as a sysop I don't even need to know how to use the bug, simply knowing the results of the bugs would give me something to go on. I have heard rumors but never confirmation from EIS about any bugs at all. Lastly, it is alot easier to take a while to fix a bug, if you think you, the programmer, and the guy who promisses he only told you about it know about it. Another problem we see Microsoft having. They take FOREVER to get patches out. I am not saying the same about EIS, but I am saying that for some bugs, which I have heard rumors about, which are potentially game destroying bugs, it has already taken an extremely long time, from when I first heard the rumors, to get a fix out, and its still not out. I think its nice that big bug fixes tend to happen around the time of major tournies, so we are guaranteed 4 new versions a year. But that does nothing to help the countless sysops not running major tournies to keep their local games integrity intact.

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith

quote:
I'd like to ask the sysops and gameops who participate in this forum whether they have found it useful, and in what ways. The forum has been up and running for three months now and I'd like some feedback as to whether it is providing any service that the other forums on the EIS web site do not.

Also, I've got about a half-dozen TW projects on my plate right now, and I've fallen even further behind after being gone for two weeks. I guess this part of the question is: As EIS' Product Support contact, is there anything that you can think of that I am not currently doing that I should be, or that I could do better at?

Feedback is important to me, as I want to help JP keep EIS rolling smoothly both on the development side as well as for the customers that are using TW/TWGS software.

Any and all compliments, criticisms, concerns and suggestions are welcome.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support



This is what I expect from the forum....

"Bug Reports, Future Developments, Current and Planned Fixes and General Discussion of Sysop related subjects."


At the moment there is not "Bug Repoorts" here. At least from JP, EIS Team Members or EIS Beta Test members. You have stated no bug reports will be given, except to EIS TEAM Members and EIS Beta Test members. You even state that you want all reports of bugs from sysops/gameops to go directly to your, or JP, by email. This makes it easier for you and JP to know what bugs are being reported. And to allow you/JP to take action as soon as possible. But, the rest of the sysop's still have no clue about the bug, and as to what is going on with the bug.

Personally, I would rather know of any bugs/problems that would bring the server to it's knees, at the very least cause major problems with running the games. I would rather know of any bugs/problems that would destroy a game, or at the very least unbalanced a game. So that I can do what I can to deter such bug use, or decide wether to or not to use that build of TWGSv1/TW2002v3. I have never used bugs when playing in a game, and I have never condone the use of bugs with in a game.

Nothing has been mentioned in regards to "Current and Planned Fixes" unless someone askeds about a specific bug or problem. At which point you do mention about it being fixed. Or going to be fixed. But, then since the sysops/gameops don't know of any bugs/problems in TWGSv1/TW2002v3. Unless they read about it in another forum/news group. I guess this is par for the course.

As for the "Future Developments" you have posted information on this. When you thought it was important enough for the sysops/gameops to know about it.

The "General Discussion of Sysop related subjects" has been good so far.

But, there is one thing I have not seen from you, or from any the 5-10 MAJOR sysops/gameops. That I would expect from this forum. Is tips/info on how to setup TWGS/TW2002. How to create new games. What the various options in TEDIT is for, and how they can be used. And so on, and so forth.

Even though my server is small, player wise. And I am not one of the 5-10 MAJOR sysops/gameops. Or that I am a player that has a big reputation with in the known TW community. And that my comments on anything don't mean jackshit to anyone in the community or EIS. I thought I would give me comments on this.


The WABBIT
ICQ# 12988803
http://www.shadowworldgame.com



Edited by - The WABBIT on July 01 2002 1:49:57 PM

quote:
quote:
When this forum was started I had hoped part of its purpose would be to keep sysops aware of game ruining bugs so we could devise ways to police our games. No bugs were ever disclosed here, indeed, in the beta forum most real bugs are kept secret as well, so just like the old days, only a select few know which bugs exist, the support people which is good, and the people that discovered them, and whoever they chose to tell, which is bad. As things are, I don't get any use out of this forum, and I haven't seen anything from EIS suggesting any direction in bug reporting. I suppose EIS doesn't trust it paying customers with bugs that are yet to be fixed. I am not sure what that says, heh. There you go though you asked.


What is the difference between one player discovering a bug and telling a couple people and EIS divulging bug reports to sysops? Bugs either need to be kept in confidence or they need to be made publicly available to everyone. Any time bugs are made available to a small group of people there is room for exploitation.

As for catching bug users by divulging specific bugs, that is somewhat of a moot point in my opinion. Obviously if you see an unedited Class L hit Level 6 in just a couple days you can bet that they used a bug. If you have a 700 turn game and by day two someone has a couple billion credits and a couple million fighters it is probably a safe bet to assume the person or team is exploiting a bug.

As for the Beta Team, it is pretty much a dead topic. It has been inactive, and honestly I see no need for it to exist. A majority of the bug reports go to John directly... aside from a handful of players very few people are willing to post bugs even in a semi-private forum such as the Beta Forum.

If you look at other games, beta teams typically come to an end following a public release of the game. EIS' Beta Team was formed following the release of the game. I've been involved in the pre-release Betas of Stars! (finished), Stars! SuperNova Genesis (presently ongoing) as well as a third game that failed to find a publisher. In all cases, most Beta testing was done prior to a public release, avoiding the entire problem of having a private group of players/sysops privy to information that the general public was not. However, even following public releases of Stars! in particular, all bug reports were censored. Following release, even the Beta members were not privvy to the finding of other members. Only the Beta Lead and the Production Manager had access to bug reports. The only time any bugs were ever made public to anyone was only when it was a matter of security problems in the client packages.

This is how a Beta system should work and how bug reports with games should be handled, in my opinion. If it were up to me I would scrap the Beta Team and Forum and rely solely on direct bug reports from players. It seems to me this would solve a couple different ongoing issues. It could easily be replaced by a post only forum, as the Beta Team for Stars! had. Bugs could be submitted for review by anyone, not just the Beta members, but no browsing or viewing was permitted by any other people.

Anyways, there's my opinion.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support


I to have done beta for various programs, and games. To include currently beta testing TW:DM. And in every beta testing I have done. Every company has had their own ideas about bug reporting.

But, I have found that the best for bug reporting. Is that those conducting the testing know of any and all bugs with all information pertaining to the bug, for couple a reasons.

1. So that they can attempt to see if the bug is reproducable or not.
2. They do not report a bug that has already be reported. Unless they have more information about the bug. Such as, it happened under different conditions. They have different system specs, etc.
3. So that they can attempt to see if the bug still shows up in new builds, where the bug should have been fixed.

(There are other reasons, but I am too brain dead to think of the rest. 72hrs with out sleep does that to people.)

Personally, I think that the EIS Beta Test team should be removed. Since TWGSv1/TW2002v3 has been in public beta mode for years now.


The WABBIT
ICQ# 12988803
http://www.shadowworldgame.com

quote:
Well I entirely disagree with the way you think bug reports ought to work. What you describe is essentially security by obscurity which has helped make Miscrosoft a laughingstock in security circles. It was also the same method used by HVS. Eleq did a huge service to the game when he publicly posted all known bugs. Frankly, as a sysop I don't even need to know how to use the bug, simply knowing the results of the bugs would give me something to go on. I have heard rumors but never confirmation from EIS about any bugs at all. Lastly, it is alot easier to take a while to fix a bug, if you think you, the programmer, and the guy who promisses he only told you about it know about it. Another problem we see Microsoft having. They take FOREVER to get patches out. I am not saying the same about EIS, but I am saying that for some bugs, which I have heard rumors about, which are potentially game destroying bugs, it has already taken an extremely long time, from when I first heard the rumors, to get a fix out, and its still not out. I think its nice that big bug fixes tend to happen around the time of major tournies, so we are guaranteed 4 new versions a year. But that does nothing to help the countless sysops not running major tournies to keep their local games integrity intact.

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith


The closed loop in regards to bugs, is what makes Micro$uck$ the KING of bugware. And it was the same for HVS. I assume that JP wishes to have a product that is, as bug free as possible.

But, it does not matter. As the people that run and test TWGS/TW2002 have no opinions. Unless they are a EIS Team Member, EIS Beta Team member, one of the 5-10 MAJOR Sysops/Gameops, or a player that has the reputation within the known TW community for doing the most to help get TW2002 to what is it currently is.



The WABBIT
ICQ# 12988803
http://www.shadowworldgame.com

Good posts Wabbit... all of them. I'm going to try and cover them all in one reply. Probably be a long one knowing me.

quote:
At the moment there is not "Bug Repoorts" here. At least from JP, EIS Team Members or EIS Beta Test members. You have stated no bug reports will be given, except to EIS TEAM Members and EIS Beta Test members. You even state that you want all reports of bugs from sysops/gameops to go directly to your, or JP, by email. This makes it easier for you and JP to know what bugs are being reported. And to allow you/JP to take action as soon as possible. But, the rest of the sysop's still have no clue about the bug, and as to what is going on with the bug.


Yes, I have been very reluctant so far to post any bug information, and am still reluctant to do so. However, since that seems to be the common thread so far of all the replies, I'll be talking to JP to see about coming up with some kind of policy as to when and what bugs should be made publicly known. I personally am still very much against reporting any bug that doesn't involve the security or reliability of the server package, but part of what I'm trying to do is make the customers happy... which is why I asked for feedback from all of you.

quote:
Personally, I would rather know of any bugs/problems that would bring the server to it's knees, at the very least cause major problems with running the games. I would rather know of any bugs/problems that would destroy a game, or at the very least unbalanced a game. So that I can do what I can to deter such bug use, or decide wether to or not to use that build of TWGSv1/TW2002v3. I have never used bugs when playing in a game, and I have never condone the use of bugs with in a game.

At the moment I'm aware of only one serious bug that could be considered to be game-destroying. It's on the sheet for either .56 or .57 (which I'm not sure because it's going to be a lot of work it sounds like). There are other minor bugs, but nothing near as serious.

quote:
Nothing has been mentioned in regards to "Current and Planned Fixes" unless someone askeds about a specific bug or problem. At which point you do mention about it being fixed. Or going to be fixed. But, then since the sysops/gameops don't know of any bugs/problems in TWGSv1/TW2002v3. Unless they read about it in another forum/news group. I guess this is par for the course.


This is something I have no problem doing. I can certainly start posting revision fix information either as they are planned for the next revision or as they are implemented in the revision currently being worked on.

quote:
As for the "Future Developments" you have posted information on this. When you thought it was important enough for the sysops/gameops to know about it.


I have actually been very liberal with information regarding possible future versions of Trade Wars. In many cases, probably too liberal. To sum up future development of Trade Wars: v3 is near a final release, v4 is being discussed, other TW-related or similar projects are being discussed as well. There is nothing really set in stone right now aside from getting v3 to a Final Release.

quote:
The "General Discussion of Sysop related subjects" has been good so far.


I've been quite happy with the general discussion myself.

quote:
But, there is one thing I have not seen from you, or from any the 5-10 MAJOR sysops/gameops. That I would expect from this forum. Is tips/info on how to setup TWGS/TW2002. How to create new games. What the various options in TEDIT is for, and how they can be used. And so on, and so forth.


I'm working on updated help files for TEDIT. It's just a long, drawn out process. Also currently working on online documentation for all the various server configuration options and basic setup, getting the server setup with dynamic hostmasking services, etc. There is simply so much information to cover it's been taking longer than I originally planned (I started the server setup documentation two months ago).

quote:
Even though my server is small, player wise. And I am not one of the 5-10 MAJOR sysops/gameops. Or that I am a player that has a big reputation with in the known TW community. And that my comments on anything don't mean jackshit to anyone in the community or EIS. I thought I would give me comments on this.


To me, your comments and opinions are very important. I may not agree with some of them, but that makes them no less important than anyone else's. I don't have to agree with everyone's opinions... my "job" isn't to agree with people, it's to provide support to EIS customers, and if providing that support means biting the bullet and giving in... well, I'll have to live with it.

Okay, I'm not going to try to fit all these replies into a single post... see 'ya a little further down.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

quote:
I to have done beta for various programs, and games. To include currently beta testing TW:DM. And in every beta testing I have done. Every company has had their own ideas about bug reporting.


Agreed. Every company does it a bit differently, some a lot differently. Congrats on getting into the TW:DM Beta!

quote:
But, I have found that the best for bug reporting. Is that those conducting the testing know of any and all bugs with all information pertaining to the bug, for couple a reasons.


Both of the reasons you list are good reasons. And I think they certainly hold true during pre-release Beta testing. Post release... that to me is a different story. You either release bugs to everyone or you release them to no one. But again, that's only my opinion.

quote:
(There are other reasons, but I am too brain dead to think of the rest. 72hrs with out sleep does that to people.)


Sounds about like my days at the moment.

quote:
Personally, I think that the EIS Beta Test team should be removed. Since TWGSv1/TW2002v3 has been in public beta mode for years now.


I couldn't agree with this more.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

quote:
The closed loop in regards to bugs, is what makes Micro$uck$ the KING of bugware. And it was the same for HVS. I assume that JP wishes to have a product that is, as bug free as possible.


That has been one of the goals of v3 since day one. And it's getting there, but it's also showing its age...

quote:
But, it does not matter. As the people that run and test TWGS/TW2002 have no opinions. Unless they are a EIS Team Member, EIS Beta Team member, one of the 5-10 MAJOR Sysops/Gameops, or a player that has the reputation within the known TW community for doing the most to help get TW2002 to what is it currently is.


I have worked very hard to get the opinions of players regarding game changes since I started handling product support. I do my best to maintain an "open door policy" for EIS customers. My email address is freely available to anyone, and I will always welcome comments, suggestions, criticisms, etc., just as my ICQ, AIM and Yahoo! information is available as well. As long as a suggestion is within reason (please, no game suggestions like let's add X-Ray Mega-Super Death Lasers to the ships) anything I receive will be passed on to JP to be considered for v3 or other projects.

TW is not catered (although JP does try to keep as many players as happy as he can) towards the 100 or so major players, or the 5 to 10 MAJOR sysops/gameops. TW is shaped to fulfill the gameplay requirements of the thousand plus TW players that you'll likely never see on the forums but love playing the game.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

quote:
Well I entirely disagree with the way you think bug reports ought to work. What you describe is essentially security by obscurity which has helped make Miscrosoft a laughingstock in security circles. It was also the same method used by HVS.


Early versions of TW (including HVS) had a lot of player hints and tips guides released for players. And the majority of content in those guides were how-to's on utilizing bugs. I'm quite happy that no one has taken the time to do that in recent years. Then again, most of the serious gameplay bugs have been handled.

quote:
Eleq did a huge service to the game when he publicly posted all known bugs. Frankly, as a sysop I don't even need to know how to use the bug, simply knowing the results of the bugs would give me something to go on. I have heard rumors but never confirmation from EIS about any bugs at all. Lastly, it is alot easier to take a while to fix a bug, if you think you, the programmer, and the guy who promisses he only told you about it know about it.


I disagree with the "huge service" idea... If John Q. Player decides to post every bug he finds, the game will stay permanently broken, and it'll be a repeat of the early 90s when you absolutely could not compete in the game without having Slice's War Manual sitting next to you opened up to the Bugs & Tricks section. It's bad enough if one person finds out how to ruin a game... it's worse if everyone knows how to.

quote:
Another problem we see Microsoft having. They take FOREVER to get patches out. I am not saying the same about EIS, but I am saying that for some bugs, which I have heard rumors about, which are potentially game destroying bugs, it has already taken an extremely long time, from when I first heard the rumors, to get a fix out, and its still not out. I think its nice that big bug fixes tend to happen around the time of major tournies, so we are guaranteed 4 new versions a year. But that does nothing to help the countless sysops not running major tournies to keep their local games integrity intact.


Okay, let's open this up a bit more. What is the bug rumor you have heard? I'll do my best to either validate or refute the bug's existence without getting into a how-to on reproducing it if it is a known bug. If it's not a known bug then it needs to be reported and handled anyways.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

The only major bug I have heard to exist is the planet upgrade bug. I have no details on it, as the person I know to have found the bug refuses to explain it. If any other bugs exist it would be nice to know about them as well. As for your assertion that public disclosure of bugs hurts the game I think thats been proven to be silly. The fact is, by publicly disclosing bugs, more customers are upset, and the producer has more incentive to fix it quickly. When things are secret producers of products tend to sit on it. Secondly, supposing a ship cloning bug existed, as it did back in HVS versions. If the only people that know A. of the bugs existence, and B. How to pull it off, are the guy who finds it, and 3 or 4 of his friends, they can win and ruin every single game they play. If one of them gabs a little, it spreads, and it takes a long time before everyone knows about it, at which point there is at least some equalization. I have been in games before where the enemy knew bugs that I and the sysop did not even know existed until I had already lost. Frankly, that sucks. Had I known either how to do the bug or even just that the bug existed, I could A. identify it for ths sysop so the player could be banned, or B. Use the bug myself and compete in that game and not lose all the time I had spent in playing legally to some punk that came in out of nowhere. In other words, his incentive to use the bug is gone if other people use it too. Ever heard of Mutuall Assured Destruction? Thats what we had to resort to back in the HVS days, when we were waiting forever between bug fixes. And it was a hug service that Eleq provided to let all players play on a level ground, rather than letting a few players maintain their advantage.

"Jedi do not concern me" -The Sith

quote:
The only major bug I have heard to exist is the planet upgrade bug. I have no details on it, as the person I know to have found the bug refuses to explain it. If any other bugs exist it would be nice to know about them as well.


This is a known bug that should be fixed for the .56 release if it hasn't been already. Like I said in my prior post, I won't get into a how-to on how to reproduce the bug, but it's use will be obvious if someone's planets are building citadels quicker than they should be. If someone's running around with a Level 6 a couple days into a stock game, this bug has been used.

There is another bug that allows ports (including StarDock and the Class 0 ports) to be destroyed easily. There's really no way that I can figure on how to track use of this in the later stages of the game. Early on you'll know if its used when someone blows StarDock a day or two into the game and they only needed a couple thousand fighters.

Off the top of my head there aren't any other serious game-destroying bugs in the game at the moment. Then again, I haven't looked at the bug list since before I went on my trip and my memory isn't the best these days.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

quote:

...... and my memory isn't the best these days.

Lisa M. Cutler
aka Rave
EIS Product Support



Lisa,

I can take this down many of different of roads. But, I'll just be nice and keep my fingures from typing.



The WABBIT
ICQ# 12988803
http://www.shadowworldgame.com