quote:Originally posted by Col Sanders

Puke.... You need not address me Rick. Aside from all your imagined insults and such nonsense, The question becomes, is TW for sale? IF the code were for sale I would try to put together a group of people that wanted to open source it, to buy it and then do so. I doubt its for sale a reasonable price though. Despite your impression of the game's buginess, other people notice plenty of bugs. You can continue to play the part of Jeff Moriarty if you want. I don't really care. Someone else posted the topic, and I explained why I agree with him. Nothing in your response was a lgeitimate counterpoint. So I will keep waiting for your synapases to fire and see if a legitimate counter point can work its way out of your mouth.


::sigh:: In the past I've tried to put this a dozen different ways, always trying to lay it out in a polite manner. Evidentally, there's too many people with too thick of heads to understand this...

There are some bugs in TW. The vast majority of these bugs affect an extremely small number of players. There is absolutely no sense in a person spending the rest of their life trying to fix every dang loophole a very small minority of players find in the game. No piece of software is bug free. TW will never be bugfree. But if v3 were to end tomorrow, I'd have no problem registering .55 as a final release. Like Rick, I've encouraged JP in the past to finish v3. Get it done and over with. Of course, he wouldn't hear of it. I've seen some of the stuff he's capable of doing, and as far as I'm concerned, Trade Wars as it stands today is pretty much a waste of his talents considering the extremely limited target audience he has for the end product..

Not that Trade Wars isn't a great game. It always has been and always will be. But he's capable of doing so much more than working on decade old legacy code for a text-driven BBS game.

*chuckle* Gezze, I didnt know a little topic suggestion would fire off so much emotion, aside from xBlack_Knightx's butt kissing and DEMON's no brain flame, this is turning into a nice little debate.

If the code is for sale (at a reasonable price), I think Col Sanders has a nice idea. A group of people could purchase the "crappy code" (as Rick put it) and open source it. I realize that JP has many more important things to do (with DM for one) as was Rick's main point in his long post. I am definately NOT trying to bash JP in any way as was illuded to in Rick's post as well. What he has done in his spare time with this code is extraodinary. I also understand that when you are activly SELLING a product as being in development, you should make efforts to support it other than just selling current licenses and moving on to another project.

quote:Originally posted by Rave
Not that Trade Wars isn't a great game. It always has been and always will be. But he's capable of doing so much more than working on decade old legacy code for a text-driven BBS game.

You made my point in a nutt-shell Rave. I too believe that TW is a fantastic game and it always has been, BUT... A group of programmers with free time could make the game better leaving JP and his capabilities to make something new wonderful for us to buy. I think that a blanket generalization of every other programmer's ability in the world as being "Hello World" code is a little short sighted. I dont feel the need to issue you my qualifications as a compitent programmer. I'm just trying to open up a little debate on this dead forum. [:D] (Stop taking it so personally)

BTW> A person's spelling ability has nothing to do with their ability to program, just means they are more detail oriented in the code rather than gramatically oriented. I spell like CRAP and yet I have sold custom business applications for tens of thousands of dollars each. Thats why I get my wife to spell check everything for me.[:I]

Since two people now have brought up my coding abilities, let me dispel any rumors, I do not, nor do I claim to be a programmer. I play this game, and run a licensed TWGS. I like things to work. I do not like abandonware. If someone does not have the time to put into something, its just a matter of doing the right thing to either sell it to someone that has the time, or to give it to the "community" that has sustained it, by playing it, dedicating web sites to it, beta testing it, licensing it, promoting it, etc.

I recognize JP probably paid a ton of money for TW, and may or may not have eevn made all of his investment back. So I can see where it would be hard to sell it, much less give it away. JP is also very busy, and who knows whats going on with him, other than the two people that post about how busy he is. Its not my place to speculate on how busy he is, or what his motives or plans are in keeping the game in its current state or any of that stuff. Because I am not part of his circle, all I can do is suggest what I think the right thing to do is.

Sorry my spelling does not live up to people's expectations. Half the time I am typing, I have a sleeping baby on my lap and have to type one handed while using other hand to support his head. Besides, that, even when I do not have a sleeping baby on me, I am a sucky typist People should be more careful though when they hurl blind insults at people. Insults that are meant to belittle someone's point by belittling the person. What if I was paralyzed and typing one fingered or something. Then Black Knight might feel like a schmuck. But thats a personality issue.

So, whether you like me or not, I don't really care, I have enough friends. If you have something valid to argue, please do.

quote:I've seen some of the stuff he's capable of doing, and as far as I'm concerned, Trade Wars as it stands today is pretty much a waste of his talents considering the extremely limited target audience he has for the end product..

Not that Trade Wars isn't a great game. It always has been and always will be. But he's capable of doing so much more than working on decade old legacy code for a text-driven BBS game.


Ok, so as a SysOp and a "customer" and a long time user of TradeWars, let me ask you a question: If you think he (JP) is "capable of doing so much more..." then why not open-source it? Some of us SysOp's have followed TradeWars long before JP was even mentioned and we will always will. So you open source it so someone else can fix it to do something different or add something else. So what? Then we as the "customers" will make the choice to run it or not. I think Col Sanders raised an interesting question. I was going to ask a similar question, but seeing the posts, I'm not too sure what to expect or think.
I'd try the game if someone else made changes to it. So what? I still like the game, and I think EIS (well, JP in particular) have done a great job. And in case my post is mis-interpreted by anyone, I know there are a few glitches in software. I can live with it, others may not. Ok, so there must be some solution or other ideas we all could come up with. There is another game out there similar to TradeWars we've seen on another BBS board. No mention to EIS or the original people we registered from back in the 90's, so I assume it was a "clone".

Col Sanders raised a valid point: I too as a SysOp and clients that play on our server/BBS love the game and hate to see it fall into the abandonware category. And in case someone from EIS see this post, let me point out that I too love this game and have supported it for many years. We have tonnes of clients playing it, and it works good on my system.

So hopefully this post was not interpreted as a flame to anyone..just an opinion of a customer and a SysOp.

Trade Wars isn't abandonware. I doubt it's going to become abandonware. Just because releases aren't coming at the speed you expect them to doesn't make or imply that the game has been abandoned.

quote:Originally posted by Rave

Trade Wars isn't abandonware. I doubt it's going to become abandonware. Just because releases aren't coming at the speed you expect them to doesn't make or imply that the game has been abandoned.


It's okay, Rave. I'm not attacking you or EIS or anyone. I was merely pointing out that I too was curious if it would ever become open source. I could care less if it takes a year for the next release. I love the current game now, and so do our clients. I realize that it takes time. I have seen games go full tilt before then all of a sudden the "author" has a focus to something else. I may have misunderstood where this open source idea was heading. I posted only to get more info on the idea, not to "suggest" or "imply" the game is abandonware.

quote:Originally posted by GateKeeper


It's okay, Rave. I'm not attacking you or EIS or anyone. I was merely pointing out that I too was curious if it would ever become open source. I could care less if it takes a year for the next release. I love the current game now, and so do our clients. I realize that it takes time. I have seen games go full tilt before then all of a sudden the "author" has a focus to something else. I may have misunderstood where this open source idea was heading. I posted only to get more info on the idea, not to "suggest" or "imply" the game is abandonware.


No, this won't be a flame reply. Maybe Im a idiot but regarding "Open Source" once a program is open source doesn't that mean it may NOT be profitted on in any form deviated from the original? Is there a legal consequence for profitting off open source? I guess I am thinking of all those Darn disclaimers I see on "LiteStep", "FreeBSD" (etc.) and similar. Secondly I dont see how buying a registration gives any of these people or even *ME* the right to beg for that. Honestly I dont even see why thats a issue. If JP was up for that he'd let us know, otherwise I see it as rude to continue the begging. And no, I do not think the bugs are that bad... I see worse in Windows.

quote:Originally posted by xblack_knightx

quote:Originally posted by GateKeeper


It's okay, Rave. I'm not attacking you or EIS or anyone. I was merely pointing out that I too was curious if it would ever become open source. I could care less if it takes a year for the next release. I love the current game now, and so do our clients. I realize that it takes time. I have seen games go full tilt before then all of a sudden the "author" has a focus to something else. I may have misunderstood where this open source idea was heading. I posted only to get more info on the idea, not to "suggest" or "imply" the game is abandonware.


No, this won't be a flame reply. Maybe Im a idiot but regarding "Open Source" once a program is open source doesn't that mean it may NOT be profitted on in any form deviated from the original? Is there a legal consequence for profitting off open source? I guess I am thinking of all those Darn disclaimers I see on "LiteStep", "FreeBSD" (etc.) and similar. Secondly I dont see how buying a registration gives any of these people or even *ME* the right to beg for that. Honestly I dont even see why thats a issue. If JP was up for that he'd let us know, otherwise I see it as rude to continue the begging. And no, I do not think the bugs are that bad... I see worse in Windows.


You would think that "Open Source" means that. But, look at Linux. It is Open Source. Yes, you can get any one of the various types of Linux out there for free, except Lindows. But, you receive no tech support. Unless you purchase their Linux. Or purchase tech support, the same amount or more as your purchasing their Linux retail. You receive no documentation. (Well, you can get a ISO of the documentation. But, unless you have some type of Linux already loaded. It don't do you any good.) Unless you purchase their Linux retail.

Lindows is a new version of Linux. It is also uses the Linux core that all the others use. But, you can not get it for free. You have to pay $200 just to get it. And that is the d/l version.

True Open Source, as defined by those of the original concept:

You can not make money off of the original/core code. But you can still make money of the rest of the code. That you had place with the original/core code to make your own version of the product. With the exception of fixes for bugs to the Original/core code. It also includes the making of money for reimbursements of advertisement, packaging, etc. of the new product. And there is nothing that says that you can not make more than just reimbursements.

quote:
You can not make money off of the original/core code. But you can still make money of the rest of the code. That you had place with the original/core code to make your own version of the product. With the exception of fixes for bugs to the Original/core code. It also includes the making of money for reimbursements of advertisement, packaging, etc. of the new product. And there is nothing that says that you can not make more than just reimbursements.





Ok, I follow ya. That makes sense.

I feel ashamed that I would feel the need to defend myself and others against posts like the following quote, but alas, here goes:

quote:Originally posted by xblack_knightx
Secondly I dont see how buying a registration gives any of these people or even *ME* the right to beg for that. Honestly I dont even see why thats a issue. If JP was up for that he'd let us know, otherwise I see it as rude to continue the begging.

First of all, no one is "begging" for anything. This is just a topic put forth for discussion. I dont believe anyone here believes that the opinions stated in these forums have much, if any, weight to them at all. (Except major bug reports that have been reported and replyed to). The only thing I could see as being construed as "rude" would be if someone were to say "This program really sucks, and I could do a WAY better job of programming with one hand tied behind my back, thats why I WANT it Open Sourced." or name calling because you have no better counter-argument. But no-one is saying this. Infact its quite the contrary, everyone is saying what a wonderful job JP and others have done with this program. Its one of the few I have seen last for so long. Its been around for the last 12 years I have played and owned it probably longer than that. This topic was put out here to HELP not hurt. I believe, along with others, that open source is a nice way to get software developed in a short amount of time. Especially when the focus of the author has been shifted on to bigger, better things. Theres still profit to be made from the open source modle, its just diferent. I'm not even saying I would ever open source anything I have ever written (mostly because its stuff I have written under contract for corporations). Its just something to talk about.[:p]

Second, the fact that I'm a human being gives me the right to say whatever I think (within given rules of profanity, etc). Not just because I have purchased anything. I think some need a lesson in the first amendment. If the moderator comes back and says "You cant say anything more related to this topic, thats their right as owners of this board.[:)]

And now on to something more productive to this topic. It seems that people are making quite a bit off of just supporting their diferent versions of open sourced programs. It seems kinda funny to me that a community helped work on a program, someone makes some minor, or sometimes major changes to the code and sells services related to this code. Is there something wrong with this model? I'm not sure, but it seems kinda wrong to me. BUT, someone's gotta make money somehow, or else the open source model would not work I guess. I dont think that money comes from just selling physical media with their version of the software written on it. I think I might make up some changes to Linux kernal and sell support for it. Or I could do like Micro$oft does and build my software buggy so that I can make TONS of money supporting the end users and their problems. *gets dollar signs in his eyes* $-) (I'm being sarcastic, no honest or even moral programmer would ever do that *again points his finger at Micro$oft*)

PS> The reason I say what we say here in the forums has no weight in anything is from the simple quote listed below from this same topic:
quote:Originally posted by Rick Mead (TeamEIS)
Luckily what you see or don't see as damaging has 0 effect on anything
*cheers the product support*

Out of pure curiousity (being a broke university student and all), if the TW code is "always for sale", what's the current asking price on it?

I think EIS has done a great job with it of course, but TW 2002 has always been just a little different than I would have done. I think it's mostly the invincible feds actually Down with the feds!!

Ok I'm done now Anyway... so how much? hehe

Open Sourcing TW has got to be the least impressive idea I've ever heard posted in these forums. You people want to take crappy code that's been hacked, hatcheted, welded, hammered and superglued into a mostly stable game and then subject it to the reprogramming of any Tom, Dick and Harriott out there just for the sake of customization? Please, don't get me wrong there are instances i daydream of a change to this and a modification to this or the abilty manipulate the other. I bought TWGS and there hasn't been a day that I considered the purchase a waste even though the server has never seen a connection outside my local net and probably never will. I play tradewars because I like to take a set of established rules and limits and place my meager skills against the other people in the game. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose but I know why and how each happened. I have no interest in going to every server on the Internet just to relearn something as simple as how to get to the next sector. You want me to go to each server and have to deal with new unknown bugs that your coding has introduced to the game? or shall you call them features? Will it still be Tradewars after you've mutilated it in the name of customization? I don't know JP and probably will never meet or chat with the guy but give the guy a break. For under a hundred a pop he can't be making much off TWGS so you're gonna moan and complain because he's making money and learning skills? How much code is he going to write when the power is cut off and his PC is on the street? What you guys want is more customization so why not do the logical thing and ask the guy who has been sweating aver this product all this time to include more customization in his rewrite. I'd much prefer that than open sourcing code just so some people can get their ego fix by screwing up a game I love more than any other. Well thats my two credits worth .. take it for whatever you will but I hope JP never sells the code because from what I've seen and heard he cares more about TWGS and Tradewars than mere ego and cash.