quote:
If it were possible to have real-time updating on JumpGate servers...and I do realize this will take a lot of bandwidth...but what about allowing people to host mirrors for JumpGate to try and cut down on the bandwidth?


There's a couple problems with setting up mirrors for Jumpgate as well as real-time updating. They're not insurmountable problems, but I think it would entail a lot more work than was originally planned to get Jumpgate operating.

Bandwidth, of course, is the major issue. I'm estimating a single game update will be at least 200k worth of data without the player list if that gets implemented. If 1,000 of the registered servers upgrade to the revision with Jumpgate activated and only have one game each (most likely will have more on average), that's 200,000k worth of data (minimum) transmitted to the Jumpgate site on a daily basis if there is only one update per day. Since there will likely be four updates (every 6 hours), that's roughly 800,000k (80 megs) worth of updates per day. You can probably see where I'm going with this... an hourly update would consume as much as 2.4 gigs of bandwidth daily. (And these are lowball estimates.)

In order for there to be mirror sites, that data would have to be retransmitted to each. Add another 2.4 gigs worth of bandwidth outbound (and we haven't even touched on users accessing web pages yet).

There's also the problem of server load. Jumpgate is being designed in ASP, which (in my opinion) is notoriously bulky on the server side. Game updates are to be made via a secure HTTP post method. Each update (HTTP post) will consume a certain amount of server time as the data is placed into the database. Multiply that server load by 24,000 (given hourly updates of one game per server) and you're talking about running a major site without even counting daily user hits.

I already expect far more bandwidth and server time to be consumed by the TWGS servers updating every six hours than from players actually using Jumpgate.

Building Jumpgate around a SQL system would be much easier, much faster (both post, get and search) and far less bandwidth/server intensive since a TWGS could update only data that had changed since the last update. But the web provider doesn't offer SQL support, and it's highly unlikely that a provider switch would be made to support Jumpgate.

If you have any thoughts on this, I'm all ears... err, eyes.

Lisa M. Wilson
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

How is jumpgate going to prevent non-registered users from updating? How about hacked/cracked copies? And also, what about users using someone else's reg code? Are these going to be automatically blocked?

I only ask because it's a major problem with other on-line games such as quake3 and half-life... I'd hate to see the site get spammed to death with spoofed servers and all sorts of other junk...

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~~ XenoPhage ~~
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quote:
How is jumpgate going to prevent non-registered users from updating? How about hacked/cracked copies? And also, what about users using someone else's reg code? Are these going to be automatically blocked?


There is a system in place that will limit only registered servers to post game updates to Jumpgate. Won't go into the specifics of how that's being accomplished, but that component of Jumpgate is already in place.

quote:
I only ask because it's a major problem with other on-line games such as quake3 and half-life... I'd hate to see the site get spammed to death with spoofed servers and all sorts of other junk...


I don't see spamming of Jumpgate to be a likely problem. Hopefully I'm not being naive about it.

Lisa M. Wilson
aka Rave
EIS Product Support

quote:
How is jumpgate going to prevent non-registered users from updating? How about hacked/cracked copies? And also, what about users using someone else's reg code? Are these going to be automatically blocked?

I only ask because it's a major problem with other on-line games such as quake3 and half-life... I'd hate to see the site get spammed to death with spoofed servers and all sorts of other junk...

--------------------------
~~ XenoPhage ~~
--------------------------


People who are using cracked copies of the game, or multiple shared codes (you can use someone else's codes as long as only 1 set of codes is being used) should probably think twice (maybe 3 times) before updating past .55

Course they didn't think twice about using the illegal codes to begin with so they probably won't bother to this time either





Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS

quote:
quote:
If it were possible to have real-time updating on JumpGate servers...and I do realize this will take a lot of bandwidth...but what about allowing people to host mirrors for JumpGate to try and cut down on the bandwidth?


Bandwidth, of course, is the major issue. I'm estimating a single game update will be at least 200k worth of data without the player list if that gets implemented.


There is very little game info that needs to be sent to Jumpgate besides what's displayed with a *. Add a player list, and some info that * doesn't display, say another full set of the same amount of info, and even assuming the data is sent in a really poor way, with all the same headers as the info * displays (which would be unnecessary since Jumpgate could just accept comma-deliniated data instead of everything needing a title; it'd understand that the 15th piece of data was the price of a photon, or whatever, instead of needing to be sent "Photon=$40,000", and save 8 bytes by just receiving "40000,"), and you've got 4k per update. Not 200k.

Getting rid of headers, you could easily manage 2k/update. The current * screen on one of my games, for example, *including* all those unnecessary headers, is just shy of 2000 bytes. By the time you double the information (though I can't think of that much to add, I'll just give you the benefit of the doubt), remove the headers, and add player listings and some sort of authentication with hashed reg codes, we're at 4k/update.

Okay, so let's go with 4k/update, which is a more realistic but somewhat highball estimate. Five games on EVERY server, which is definitely highball (I'd guess the average is closer to 3, myself). You get one tenth of all your numbers right there. 20k per server per update. Which means you could update hourly and use less bandwidth than you thought once every 6 hours would use.

I'd definitely revisit bandwidth usage and reconsider hourly (or possibly even realtime) updates. Why? Because by updating in realtime, you can also ONLY send *changed* information. Even that 4k per update is only for the FIRST update from a given game. After the first update, unless that game is rebanged, obviously some information would never change and thus never need to be resent. That's where you'd reintroduce headers, since you wouldn't need to send the entire block of data.

For example, let's go with an hourly block of something like "F123481M1328P1,38349,3281P2,438,1000". That's 36 bytes and covers an hour of play that changed the fighter count, mines count, and had two people playing (whose names were previously sent to Jumpgate and are therefore already stored, thus they can be referred to by number now) which changed their experience and alignment. And that's 36 bytes. 0.036k per hour.

Okay, so only two people playing in a given hour is low. Let's say twenty are playing. This is a really active game, EVERY hour, 20 people play and change their XP/align. Multiply 360 bytes times 5 games times 1000 servers. 1800k/hour. 500 bytes per second. I definitely think a Jumpgate server can handle it. Hell, I have a 2400 baud modem I can donate to the cause.

If you were looking at 200k (what on earth did you think Jumpgate needed to know, full sector data?! I don't need to be able to search by games with three class H planets in sector 4831 ) every update, you definitely need to revisit how Jumpgate works. You don't need to send *all* the data every time--updates past the first can only send changes; and even the full first packet of data shouldn't be more than 4k or so in size.

Edited by - Xentropy on June 08 2002 5:35:00 PM

If you are sending 200K per game, you're doing it wrong. Assuming the following is being sent:

Server Name and IP
Game Name
Basic Settings

I'd be surprised if you used up 1K. Get into the detailed settings and it might hit 2K as Xentropy said.

I'd still only go for once a day updates, and with immediate posting of new games. That's all you really need.

However there are other things that should probably be considered. Game age is fine - but I like starting some games "Old", so there should also be a "Date Opened" box, and a comparison between game age and number of days open.

That's my two cents

The Mad Hatter

quote:
quote:
How is jumpgate going to prevent non-registered users from updating? How about hacked/cracked copies? And also, what about users using someone else's reg code? Are these going to be automatically blocked?

I only ask because it's a major problem with other on-line games such as quake3 and half-life... I'd hate to see the site get spammed to death with spoofed servers and all sorts of other junk...

--------------------------
~~ XenoPhage ~~
--------------------------


People who are using cracked copies of the game, or multiple shared codes (you can use someone else's codes as long as only 1 set of codes is being used) should probably think twice (maybe 3 times) before updating past .55

Course they didn't think twice about using the illegal codes to begin with so they probably won't bother to this time either





Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS



This is an age old problem. If Jumpgate helps prevent this, go for it. Pay to Caesar what is Caesars.



Visit slbbs.com port 2002 for a rip roaring game of TW where you also have to battle the Klingons, Romulans, Orians and the Borg.

quote: People who are using cracked copies of the game, or multiple shared codes (you can use someone else's codes as long as only 1 set of codes is being used) should probably think twice (maybe 3 times) before updating past .55

Course they didn't think twice about using the illegal codes to begin with so they probably won't bother to this time either



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS


Rick, what about instances where someone has your codes but not the permission to use them? Would Jumpgate prevent both servers from being used?

I ask because someone was able to get my codes when I failed to change the admin password after a format & re-install and don't want to get noted as doing something wrong when I am not.

Thanks!
Abraxus


Edited by - Abraxus on June 24 2002 12:34:24 PM

Assuming it's not an auto blocking method...
if they get a flag thrown for 2 codes by 2 different servers, then all they have to do is look at what the address of the server is. only one server will have the proper address. And a simple email to the owner of the codes can also help to resolve the problem

quote:
quote: People who are using cracked copies of the game, or multiple shared codes (you can use someone else's codes as long as only 1 set of codes is being used) should probably think twice (maybe 3 times) before updating past .55

Course they didn't think twice about using the illegal codes to begin with so they probably won't bother to this time either



Rick Mead
Project Manager teamEIS


Rick, what about instances where someone has your codes but not the permission to use them? Would Jumpgate prevent both servers from being used?

I ask because someone was able to get my codes when I failed to change the admin password after a format & re-install and don't want to get noted as doing something wrong when I am not.

Thanks!
Abraxus


Edited by - Abraxus on June 24 2002 12:34:24 PM


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